Adam Degraide:
Coming up today on David versus Goliath …
Mark Stouse:
Data is always crucial, but it is always and only about the past.
Adam Degraide:
Big words and a lot of things I think that are really important for small businesses to take.
Speaker 3:
Welcome to today’s episode of David Versus Goliath, a podcast dedicated to helping small businesses leverage technology to not only help them compete against their large competitors, but win. Your host is currently the CEO of Anthem Business Software, a three time Inc. 500 recipient, and a serial entrepreneur with a passion to help small businesses everywhere find, serve, and keep more customers profitable. Please join me in welcoming your host, Adam Degraide.
Adam Degraide:
Hey, everyone, it’s Adam Degraide from the David Versus Goliath podcast. Hope you’re having a fantastic day. Today we’re going to be interviewing Mark Stouse from Proof Analytics out of Scottsdale, Arizona. Today’s episode is brought to us by automatemysocial.com, where if you’re a small business, you can automate 90 to 100% of the creation, posting, automatization, and strategy for social media forever and never have to think about it again. I was talking to a business owner the other day that said they saved $48,000 a year by switching their social media efforts over to automatemysocial.com. Go check it out. Also, visit us online at davidvsgoliathpodcast.com. There you can subscribe for our newsletter and also apply to be on the podcast. Well, with no further ado, let’s get right into it. Mark, welcome to the DVG podcast. How are you, sir?
Mark Stouse:
I’m doing well. How are you?
Adam Degraide:
I’m doing excellent. It’s great to have you on, a fellow lover of analytics and data in a digital world, which as you and I know, Mark, a lot of people say they love it, but they really don’t know what they’re looking for and they don’t know what they need, and so it’s always great to have somebody else who’s involved in this. I’ve been building software for years with a digital slant, with an ROI perspective, and if you don’t really know what’s effective and what’s not, you’re dead in the water. We used to tell people all the time that you can only manage what you can measure and if you don’t know what you’re missing, you don’t know how to actually manage it because you’re not measuring maybe the right metrics. So for the watchers and listeners of David Versus Goliath, tell them a little bit about your company, I believe it was started in 2015, and exactly what Proof Analytics does.
Mark Stouse:
Yeah. I mean, Proof is the natural extension of the previous, I don’t know, 15 to 18 years’ worth of climbing the analytics hill, not as a data scientist, but as a business leader, who was increasingly convinced that analytics, being analytics led was the only way to be, that augmenting the decision-making of the human brain was logical and that there were countless examples. Pilots is just a super easy one that went through the same transition and would never dream in a million years not to take advantage of automation and analytics and AI and all that kind of stuff in their airplanes today. The same thing is true in business. And so I got, ultimately, to a very high level of maturity as a very senior corporate leader, in my case as chief marketing officer, leading very large global teams and global campaigns in some very complex businesses. And there was just literally no way to be able to demonstrate the relationships between, say, marketing investment and sales impact without analytics.
Marketing and sales are asynchronous in terms of the way that they create value. One is linear, that would be sales, in the way that it creates value. Marketing is non-linear. The amount of time lag represented in each given investment and then the half-life degradation thereafter is all different. And so if you are seeking to optimize spend in a changing environment, so it’s not just about marketing and sales, it’s about all the things in the world that you don’t control that impact all that, then there’s really no other way to do it. But we were on the corporate side, this is all pre-Proof. We got to a very high level of success and sophistication in that, but it costs very large amounts of money, 7, 8, $9 million a year was not unusual. It was brute force. We basically had to hire way more data analysts and data scientists than we otherwise would’ve liked to have hired, just to get the throughput, just to reduce the latency of the recalc, was a killer. If you’re doing this and you’re doing it accurately, but you’re not doing it at the clock speed of the business, you’re done. You’re going to be accurate, probably, but you’re not going to be relevant.
Adam Degraide:
Yeah. The moment has passed. It’s interesting that you talked about air traffic controllers. That’s one of the examples that I’ve always used. I’ll never forget the day, I don’t know if you remember this years ago, out of DC out of Reagan International Airport, they had a report where the air traffic control people fell asleep and there was only one of them in one them in the tower. Guess who took off at that exact night at the exact moment and watched that report? Me. I happened to be one of the planes that took off during that. And I remember saying to myself, “Thank God I’m alive.” And to your point, if you as a business owner and as somebody who’s managing a department or an entire company, if you don’t have relevant data that can impact the world right now, you’re always looking backwards. And so it’s very difficult to make decisions in hindsight when the world, to your point, could be shifting right now, which I think is fascinating. So how did you-
Mark Stouse:
Yeah, and I think it really is super important, very foundationally important to say that data is always crucial, but it is always and only about the past.
Adam Degraide:
It’s so true. Even when you get it in real time, it’s already gone.
Mark Stouse:
It’s already gone. And so if you are making decisions based solely on data and, let’s say in data visualization kinds of things, you are behind the eight ball. There is no forecast capability in that. Any forecasting that you do is essentially, you deciding that past is going to be prologue. And how many of us, looking back at the last three years, can say that?
Adam Degraide:
[inaudible 00:07:49].
Mark Stouse:
No one can say that. And so this is where something as pedestrian to data scientists as multi-variable linear and non-linear regression is really still answering 85% of the world’s questions about most of this kind of stuff.
Adam Degraide:
That’s fascinating.
Mark Stouse:
And so we automated it. That’s what Proof is. We basically made it possible for a data analyst to model something much faster, so instead of days, it’s single digit hours to create a model.
Adam Degraide:
That’s great.
Mark Stouse:
We really are very agile in our framework around it. In fact, software talks about the minimum viable product. We talk about the minimum viable model, so how important it is to be able to say to your business customer, “Hey, I’ve created this model. How does this work for you? Does this answer your question? Does this help you make a better decision?” And you ping pong that several times and then you get it into a good place and you put it in production, which means hooking it up to the APIs and stuff and Proof, after that it becomes effectively autonomous.
Companies tend to measure things at the clock speed of their operations. That means that these models, when as soon as they sense new data coming in at whatever the right cadence is, they’re going to automatically recalc. This is where we have found that these models, properly UXed, operate very much like a GPS. In fact, most business questions really are navigation questions. What do I need? I’m on this road. I’m on this forecast. I’m on this path to this goal. Things are changing. What do I need to change in response? How much do I need to change? Why do I need to change? That’s a navigation question right there.
Adam Degraide:
Totally. So when you started Proof, you were working currently at a big company. Did you fund it yourself? Did you get investors? How did that transition take place?
Mark Stouse:
We actually had a great situation. Everyone who was involved in Proof from the very beginning had made a lot of money somewhere else, and so we funded it ourselves for the first year.
Adam Degraide:
That’s great.
Mark Stouse:
Then we attracted some outside investment from family offices who really wanted to get in and-
Adam Degraide:
When you say family offices, you talking about your family members?
Mark Stouse:
No, no. This is not friends and family. These are very high net worth individuals who, they and their families have so much money that rather than pay JP Morgan Chase or whoever to manage it for them, they hire anywhere from 1 to 10, usually, investment management professionals to work for them as employees in what is literally an incorporated entity, a family office, and that is the way that they manage their money.
Adam Degraide:
That’s great. And now, are you managing your money that way?
Mark Stouse:
Actually, I do have a family office and I do manage my money that way. Yeah.
Adam Degraide:
That’s awesome, man. That’s awesome. Well, congratulations to you. It sounds awesome. How many people are currently working in the business right now?
Mark Stouse:
We’re up to about 37, 38, in that ballpark, and we work with customers like Samsung and Beyer and Johnson Controls and Honeywell and others. I mean, it’s a really cool list. The other thing that’s interesting, not only for Proof but for the analytics industry at large, is that beginning at about six months into COVID, the whole sector saw a tremendous increase in interest in business, largely because it became more and more apparent, I think, to more and more people that past was indeed not prologue anymore. And if they weren’t able to actually forecast results from X and then optimize and reoptimize that as time went along, so again, this is the GPS analogy right here, they were going to have a big problem. When we look at customers, for example, across 2019, 2021, and ’22, one of the things that’s really just leaps off the page is the amount of impact that the changing environments have had on the investment equation between whatever you’re spending in a given area of your operations and its outcome. It’s mind blowing, actually.
Adam Degraide:
It is mind blowing. Well, we got to take our first break from our first corporate sponsor. You’re with Mark and Adam from David Versus Goliath. You’re learning about analytics, big words and a lot of things that I think that are really important for small businesses to take, is the fact that you have to know your numbers, you have to know your metrics, and you have to manage with them. Stay tuned. We’ll be right back.
Speaker 3:
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Adam Degraide:
I’m back with Mark. Mark. This has been awesome so far, learning a ton, and I think to boil it down to simplicity, because those of us that deal in data and software and analytics all the time, we can look at it in very high level terms and people can be listening. I have businesses with people with 500 employees that watch the show. I have entrepreneurs who are getting ready to start their business. I have small businesses under five employees that watch this show. To help them practically understand, a client calls you at Proof Analytics, walk us through the life. Say this is our challenge and then this is your solution and how does that practically get implemented into that business? I think that would help people.
Mark Stouse:
Yeah. No, that’s a great question. I think that one of the most important things is to realize that we’re talking about the scientific method of inquiry, and you probably haven’t bumped into that since high school or college science class. Right?
Adam Degraide:
You know what’s funny? I was actually just watching the other day, a video, I don’t know even remember where I saw it, but they were talking about how they were able to delineate earthquake’s seismic activity and predicting them. Was it the Folsom fast transformation method or something like that? It basically was how they eliminated certain odds and even numbers and they were able to take something that would take 300 hours to compute down to 30 seconds because of this formula, who they found out, by the way, a guy had already discovered back in the 1800s in an unpublished work of this guy. I don’t know if you know what I’m talking about. It was a fascinating video, I watched it, and so it’s what you’re doing. You’re taking the complicated and then you’re simplifying it into a pill form and then you’re automating it so it could run itself without having to have such heavy lifting, like you said, the $9 million a year heavy lifting of this person managing this spreadsheet and this person managing this data and then trying to put it together. That’s what we’re talking about in a practical sense, correct?
Mark Stouse:
Well, yeah, because I mean, the bottom line here is that the math has not been the issue for a very long time. Certainly, the math has occasionally improved here and there in the margins, there’s a lot of smart guys doing that kind of stuff, but the math is the math. The issue that spawned Proof was the inability of data science teams and business teams to get together and operationalize the analytics in a way that made the input and the output relevant to the decision-making cadence of the business and really helped them do better. What’s what’s really key here is, just to show you, I’ll give you a really strong sense of it right here. If you were to take a repeating business decision that has to be made daily, and there’s a lot of those, right?
Adam Degraide:
Yeah, ton of them.
Mark Stouse:
You improved the quality, used analytics to improve the quality of that business decision, one half of 1% every day for one year, the compounded value of all of those improvements would yield an annualized 1,800% improvement, which is freaking huge.
Adam Degraide:
That’s very huge.
Mark Stouse:
So analytics is not just about, “Oh, I got to find my 30% this month.” That’s not it. It’s just like investment. It’s a lot like savings. It’s a journey, but boy, does all the numbers work in your favor when you’re on this journey. It’s absolutely fabulous.
Adam Degraide:
So somebody calls you right now, they say, “Proof Analytics, I need your product.” What is the typical problem you’re solving for and then what does it actually look like? They buy it then what?
Mark Stouse:
Typically, we sell into finance teams and marketing teams. These are the adversaries in this particular situation. Occasionally, sales teams are also involved, sales leadership is involved. Most of the time, the finance guys immediately understand what’s going on analytically and between them and the data science teams, which are also usually involved, they just go, “Yep, this is a total winner. This is great. Understand why so many CDOs have already endorsed Proof. Makes total sense.” Then the issue, really, then, is non-technical. It’s about sitting down with the marketing teams and the rest of the C-suite interested parties and saying, “Hey, what are the biggest questions you have about marketing’s interaction with sales or whatever?” Usually that is not hard for them to rattle off. In fact, at this stage of doing all this, I can probably tell you the top 20 in advance. It’s that predictable and so you’re like, “Okay. I understand this.” These questions are essentially the root of decisions that have to be made and so everyone wants to make sure they make better decisions, not worse decisions. The decisions themselves or the questions themselves suggest a model or a model framework, more specifically, which includes, “Okay, based on this question, you’re going to need access to the following types of data to arm this model.”
Adam Degraide:
So some of it might come from their CRM, their sales force, or no?
Mark Stouse:
It could come from outside, could be interest rates, could be consumer confidence, could be all kinds of stuff, could be competitor.
Adam Degraide:
Okay, so you’re tying into a lot of different things.
Mark Stouse:
Yeah. And again, it all depends. The idea that the analytics is this pill that you drop into a data lake full of all this disparate data and it somehow makes sense of all of it magically is, well, not to put too fine a point on it, total bull [inaudible 00:23:21]. That’s not the way it works. The fundamental question that you’re trying to answer is going to say, “Okay, this is the kind of analytical framework that we’re going to need to work with, this is the kind of model framework, and these are the data sets or the types of data sets that we’re going to need to put into this model in order to begin to have something that we can socialize with the business and say, ‘Hey, does this represent what you’re looking for?'” So again, this is the minimum viable model. All this typically happens within two weeks. It doesn’t mean that it doesn’t continue to iterate after that.
Adam Degraide:
You get the big stuff over a [inaudible 00:24:13] period.
Mark Stouse:
Yeah. That’s how it start and people are typically really engaged because now-
Adam Degraide:
Do you have a sheet you walk the customer through-
Mark Stouse:
Absolutely.
Adam Degraide:
… to guide them? I was going to say, because if you just walk in a room and you go, “Oh, what are you trying to sell for?” Next thing you know, everyone’s saying everything and then it becomes nothing. Then it becomes nothing.
Mark Stouse:
Yeah. When we do it live, we actually have slides that project up on the walls that just flash different kinds of questions and that’s when everyone’s coming into the room, milling around, all that kind of stuff. That’s when they’re-
Adam Degraide:
You’re feeding their mind.
Mark Stouse:
Right, feeding their mind, priming them, because they’re all going to have variation-
Adam Degraide:
Do you know what they call that? People don’t realize it. This is a very underutilized principle in life, especially with consultants and trainers and in business in general. It’s called profound knowledge. What we know in advance, we prepare for in advance to save everyone time, energy, and money. And so while you putting those things on the screen, you’re not only making your life easier, you’re making their life better and they don’t even know it. Anyway, I acquiesced. Continue.
Mark Stouse:
Totally. No, totally, totally right. Time to value on Proof is usually less than 90 days. We can usually save, and save means a lot of things to a lot of people, but we can usually save a customer 10 to 20% of their current spend because 10 to 20% is usually the number that is suboptimized or basically nothing’s happening at all.
Adam Degraide:
So you’re helping them. So basically for every dollar they spend for the average watch and listener, what Mark is saying is that he has the ability to go into a business and say, “For every dollar you’re spending, you’re wasting 50 cents to 20 cents of it. We think after 90 days we can dial in and save you 20 and 30 cents on every dollar and then [inaudible 00:26:22] it from there.” Is that accurate?
Mark Stouse:
Yeah. That’s an extremely accurate statement, which I think that any data scientist-
Adam Degraide:
Are you looking for any sales guys or …
Mark Stouse:
Yeah, we can always use a good sales guy.
Adam Degraide:
Mark, hang on. We’re going to take another break. You know how many people have tried to hire me, Mark? So many. I always say no to them. I hired myself. Anyway, you’re with Mark from Proof Analytics and Adam Degraide, your handsome host from the David Versus Goliath podcast. Here’s another important message. We’ll be right back.
Speaker 4:
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Adam Degraide:
And we’re back with the final segment. And for the watchers and listeners, I do look a lot redder and I lost my voice last week. I had this terrible, horrible, cold thing and I’m just getting it back now. So if I sound a little bit raspier than usual, now you’ll know why. And Mark, this has been awesome. I got to tell you, I’m tracking with you because I love this stuff so much myself. I’m a huge data junkie, I love learning about data, but let’s go to the personal side of the business. It’s 37 people, you have partners. Has it been a beautiful partnership the whole time or has there been challenges along the way? This is an important question, by the way, because people-
Mark Stouse:
It is, absolutely. I mean, I think after doing this for six years or so …
Adam Degraide:
You still like each other?
Mark Stouse:
Yeah. No, I think for the most part. I mean, there’s been some issues for sure. I think that what you really realize is that in the people process, technology triangle, people are far and away the most important piece. And when you start, I compare running a SaaS company, whether it’s the CEO like me or anyone else that’s in power in a SaaS company, it’s very much like being handed wealth or power, in the sense that actually, wealth and power don’t corrupt. So with all due respect to the guy, the Brit that originally said that, what they do is they reveal the level of corruption that’s already present.
Adam Degraide:
I totally agree with you. It’s so funny you say that. I literally was talking about that the other day. If you look at even what the Bible says, I mean, there’s a passage in the scripture in the New Testament. It says the love of money is the root of all evil and what’s so fascinating about it is people have left out the word love of money and they just say, “Money is the root of all evil.” Well, money is not the root of all evil because at the end of the day, you couldn’t eat without money, you couldn’t survive without money, you couldn’t tithe to the church without money, and let’s be real at that point, but it does reveal who you are. So if you’re a tyrant inside of who you are, wealth and power and money make you worse. If you’re benevolent and you’re a good guy or a good girl, so to speak, and you have a kind heart and you are a generous person, that tends to become more when you have wealth and money, so I like that. I was just arguing with somebody about this the other day. Just because somebody’s rich doesn’t mean they’re bad, and just because somebody’s poor doesn’t mean they’re good. It’s all [inaudible 00:31:31].
Mark Stouse:
Well, I think that the other part, too, is that SaaS is a very, very, very hard entrepreneurial road. I mean, services, running an agency or a consultancy or something like that is vastly easier than running a SaaS company and so it tends to be fairly binary, in terms of the way that it impacts people. It will either drive them to a not so good place or it will end up breaking them down in a very constructive way and making them a much better person.
Adam Degraide:
Totally.
Mark Stouse:
I’m on my fourth SaaS business, by the way, Mark. Did you know that?
Adam Degraide:
So you know what I’m talking about, then.
Mark Stouse:
I’ve exited three of them very successfully and the fourth one is up and running and it’s going well, but people, it’s not for the faint of heart. There’s no doubt about it. It’s not.
No, absolutely not for the faint of heart and I think that it’s a great metaphor for life. I mean, I think that there’s a reason why we are not allowed to see too much of our future because if we could, we might not have the courage to take one more step. I think that that SaaS entrepreneurship is a lot the same way. I don’t care who you are. You get into it because of the one-tenth of 1% and because you believe that you are just as exceptional as they are.
Adam Degraide:
And I do.
Mark Stouse:
But if you think about it, I mean, that’s a lot of hubris.
Adam Degraide:
Listen, as I tell people, I’m very proud of my humility, Mark. It’s been an asset of mine for many, many years. People are like, “How do you do it?” I’m like, “I’m very proud of my humility.” No, you’re right. You have to look in the mirror and you have to say, “Ah, I could do this,” otherwise you’d be crazy. And I think, in some aspects of it though, there is a good crazy and these entrepreneurial type of people that come up with these ideas that are not afraid to run with them, because if you sat down and logically thought about it, you’d be like, “What am I? Am I out of my mind? I’m crazy. I could go get a job making half a million bucks, a million bucks a year right now with my resume, maybe more.” And at the end of the day, why do it again? Because you can and because in some ways, I believe I’m supposed to, so it’s fascinating that you say that.
Mark Stouse:
Yeah. Let me say this. I think that the biggest lesson that I’ve learned, and it’s both an operational learning in a SaaS company, but it’s also based on what I see over and over and over again in the analytics, and that is the amount that we actually control is actually very small. We are surfing a wave that we do not control.
Adam Degraide:
And do not understand in some ways.
Mark Stouse:
And do not really understand. What separates us from wiping out versus a flourished exit on the beach is extremely small stuff.
Adam Degraide:
It’s so true. I got to tell you a story.
Mark Stouse:
And it’s that you are not central to the story.
Adam Degraide:
I know that. I understand.
Mark Stouse:
You have a very important role to play. I have very-
Adam Degraide:
But I’m not central to it.
Mark Stouse:
But I’m not central to it.
Adam Degraide:
I’m not going to tell you which company, but there was one of my exits of my company. We were coming to the end of closing this transaction with the person who was making the investment and there was no way the company was going to survive without it. It wouldn’t have existed two days after if the transaction didn’t happen and it happened because it was supposed to happen, but it gives you a humbling respect, to your point, that there’s a wave and things that are happening around you that you can’t control. I’m a big believer. I believe in God, I believe in prayer, and I believe in trying to find that centered peace, even in those difficult storms. I believe that. My other partners, not so much. They had different types of opinions at the time, but we all had our thing that helped us get through it, but we all got through it at the end of the day. But to your point, it’s bigger than us and there’s so many things that you can’t control. Why not control the things that you can control?
Mark Stouse:
Now, you have really nailed it.
Adam Degraide:
Listen, I’m the host here. I’m feeding you back right now. This is your softball coming in from the pitcher. The pitcher literally just threw a 92 mile an hour fast ball, and here comes your 40 mile an hour, no spin on the ball. You can hit it. So that’s what Proof Analytics does, is that there’s so much in your business life you can’t control. Let us help the part that you can control, and that should be your new slogan, and I’ll take a small piece of the business for that. I’m going to have my wife call you, who’s our family CFO, and she’ll send you the paperwork. We’ll be all set.
Mark Stouse:
It’s so true and this is actually where the GPS analogy really, really works. If you think about next time you hop in your car, you pick up your iPhone, start the GPS, you know where you are and where you want to go and it will show you a route, which is the equivalent to a forecast, but what is going to change your route is exclusively stuff that you do not control.
Adam Degraide:
Yeah, totally. 100%.
Mark Stouse:
And I think that that is-
Adam Degraide:
A pandemic, a market shift, diesel shortage, all of these things.
Mark Stouse:
I think the other thing, too, that’s really important here is that a GPS only locates you within about 30 meters of your actual location and that is sufficient accuracy for that job to get you from A to B. And the same thing is true with analytics. If you model the average business decision, the confidence score is going to be in the 20 and 30s, not in the 90s. So if you can improve that, if you can help improve that into the 40s and 50s, man, you are smoking hot.
Adam Degraide:
Well, with that being said, because we’re out of time, and I’ve had a blast with you so far, I hope to have you on in the future again. How can people find you, Mark, and learn more about what you do?
Mark Stouse:
Our website is www.proofanalytics.ai. I am really active on LinkedIn. I’m very easy to find. It’s Mark, M-A-R-K, last name Stouse, S-T-O-U-S-E. I am still on Twitter, but I can’t promise how much longer that will be the case.
Adam Degraide:
What are you talking about? Twitter’s amazing. I just finally got back on it.
Mark Stouse:
Yeah. No, I think it’s …
Adam Degraide:
Elon’s tearing it up. It’s about time. Freedom of speech, babe. Where are you go? What are afraid of?
Mark Stouse:
Yeah. No, I think actually the truth is that whether it’s Twitter or anything else, I mean-
Adam Degraide:
I hate them. I hate them all.
Mark Stouse:
These are effectively large cities and just like a large city, there are parts of it you don’t want to go and there’s parts of it that are great.
Adam Degraide:
Yeah, totally. 100%. It’s funny, I was trolling around Twitter last night and I found this awesome channel. It’s called Historic Vids. This guy takes all these amazing old videos, things that would’ve been lost, and he just streams them on his feet. It was worse than TikTok, man. One hour later I’m going … I’m watching Gandhi, I’m watching Barbara Streisand, I’m watching Tina Turner, I’m watching Eddie Murphy, and I mean, I couldn’t stop, but you’re right. It’s totally right about this. So they could find you on LinkedIn, on the web. Have you had a good time being here?
Mark Stouse:
Yes, I have. Thank you. You’re a great host.
Adam Degraide:
Probably way better than you thought it was going to be.
Mark Stouse:
Yeah. I mean, I do a lot of these things and sometimes-
Adam Degraide:
Nobody has fun. They’re always so boring.
Mark Stouse:
Sometimes they’re really good and other times, you just go with it.
Adam Degraide:
You just power through it. Hey, same thing is true for me, Mark. Sometimes my guests I like, and other times I’m like, “Whoa.” I got to get steamed up and ready to burn. Anyway, it’s been awesome having you on the show. I’m going to have you back. I can’t wait to have you back. It’s been awesome. This is Adam Degraide. You’re with Mark from Proof Analytics. We’ve had an awesome day together. You never know who I’m going to interview next week, so tune in. Have an awesome day.
